Question

[Ustaad]

Jazakallah imran bhai .......... boohat acha jawab dia hai aap nay ..........

[naqshbandios_limra]

Pasand karne ka shukria Ustaad bhai.

aur Muhammad ali bhai, agar wo iska reference maange to aap mujhe isi thread man bata denqa, mere paas iss waqt Hazrat Mujuadid Alf-e-Saani rahimullah ke matoobaat ki urdu tarjuma ha, man wohi reference desakta hon.

[nasirnoman]

جزاک اللہ عمران بھائی

ایک اور حوالہ پیش خدمت ہے
تفسیر ابن کثیر میں عبد اللہ بن عباس رضی اللہ عنہ سے صحیح روایت منقول ہے کہ حضرت عیسیٰ علیہ السلام زندہ آسمان پر اٹھالئے گئے ہیں

ورفع عیسیٰ من روزنہ فی البیت الی السماء ھذااسناد صحیح الی ابن عباس "(تفسیر ابن کثیر ج 1 ص 574 زیر آیت بل رفع اللہ)ترجمعہ :عیسیٰ علیہ السلام گھر کے روزن (روشن دان سے)سے (زندہ) آسمان کی طرف اٹھا لیے گئے ،یہ اسناد ابن عباس تک بالکل صحیح ہے

[naqshbandios_limra]

Subhan Allah,

Nasir bhai bohat acha reference dia, mujhe is reference ka ilm nahin tha !

Jazakum Allah wa ahsanul jaza

[Ustaad]

Jazakallah ........ Nasir bhai .......

[iqu-76]

Jawab neche se parhna shuru kariye

VERSE NUMBER 11
Such has ever been the law of ALLAH; and thou shalt not find any change in the law of ALLAH. (The Holy Quran, 48:23)
a) Allah does not change his Law, as is defined in above verses. so Jesus Christ must die like other human beings, and cannot live for 2000 years.
b) You will not find any alteration in the course of Allah (33:62)
c) Several verses say there is no inconsistency in the law of nature and law of Allah (67:3-4; 17:77; 30:30; 33:62; 35:43; 48:23)

VERSE NUMBER 10
WE granted not everlasting life to any mortal before thee. If they shouldst die, shall they live here for ever ? (The Holy Quran, 21:34)
In the presence of the above decree of Allah, how can Jesus Christ be alive and Holy Prophet not? Surely, Jesus Christ has died like other mortals.

VERSE NUMBER 9
And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels ? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm ALLAH at all. And ALLAH will certainly reward the grateful. (The Holy Quran, 3:144)
a) all prophets before holy Prophet have passed away (wafat)
b) passing away is defined as death or being slain, no other third method.

VERSE NUMBER 8
“The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how WE explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.” (The Holy Quran, 5:75)
The verse is speaking of past. How can Jesus be alive without eating? And how will he live without eating when he returns? He used to eat, no more now.

VERSE NUMBER 7
“When Allah said, O Jesus, I will cause you to die and will raise you to myself, and will clear thee of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection, then to Me shall be your return and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.” (The Holy Quran, 3:56)
The verse clearly indicates that Hadhrat Jesus was to die a natural death and then only would he be raised to Allah. The verse does not say that Hadhrat Jesus (alaihi sallam) will be raised first then will die. An important word used in the Quran is mutawaffi, derived from tawaffa. When God is the subject and a human is the object, tawaffa means to take away the soul, i.e, death.

VERSE NUMBER 6
On one occasion the enemies of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, challenged him that they will not believe in him unless he “ascend up into heaven” and “send down to us a Book.” (17:93) The Holy Prophet replied:
“Holy is my Lord! I am but a mortal sent as a messenger.” (The Holy Quran, 17:93)
Thus the Prophets, like all humans, lived and died on the earth. If Jesus (as) is alive today, he must be more than a mortal



VERSER NUMBER 5
“Have we not made the earth so as to hold the living and the dead?” (The Holy Quran, 77:26-7)


VERSE NUMBER 4
Humans, according to the Quran, must live and die in this physical universe. Jesus Christ being a human must have died in the same earth.
“And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time, He said, therein shall you live and therein shall you die and therefrom shall you be brought forth.” (The Holy Quran, 7:25-6


The verse proves that:
a) The corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of Hadhrat Jesus (as). If Hadhrat Jesus is still alive, as some Muslims believe, then Christianity must still be pure.
b) The same Hadhrat Jesus (as) will not appear a second time in this world, as he would then become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God’s judgment seat


VERSE NUMBER 3
“Keep in mind when God will say to Jesus, son of Mary: Didst thou say to people: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? – and he will answer, Holy art Thou, I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou who art the Knower of hidden things. I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things.” (The Holy Quran, 5:117-8)


VERSE NUMBER 2
“They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised.” (The Holy Quran, 16:21)
As Jesus (as) is taken as god by Christians, he must be dead according to this verse. If he is taken alive, he must be God!!??!! nauzobillah!

.QURAN main kahe bhi hazrat ESA A.S ki wafat ka
nahi likha ........ ....................VERSE NUMBER 1
“Jesus said, I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer and alms-giving so long as I live. He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He has not made me haughty and unblessed. Peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there shall be on the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.” (The Holy Quran, 19:31-4)
The verse makes it clear:
a) Jesus (as) is not alive, because he cannot give alms to no-one in the skies. He must be giving alms as long as he lived wheresoever. So he must have died now.
b) If he descends as some are expecting, he would have to follow the Jewish prescriptions on both prayer and alms-giving – and could not be a follower of Islamic law. The Quranic verse cannot be abrogated.
c) Did his mother accompany him to skies physically? How could he otherwise behav


ik taraf 1300 saal k hazaron ki tadad main mujadid ..... aur ak teref ..Khuda ka kalam jo esa hai ki koi jhoota apnay maqsad kay liay istemal nahi kar sakta aap kis per iman rakhet hai mujadid per ya QURAN per ???


1300 saal k hazaron ki tadad main mujadid .... do char ke nam to bataye ???

[naqshbandios_limra]

I am really astonished how he is now turning his debate. I think that he has no answer on what I and Nasir has raised in front of him.

I gave a proof of Hazrat Mujadid Alf-e-Sani rahimullah about the Jesus a.s. that he a.s. will come back to this world preacing the Shareat of Hazrat Muhammad sallaho ilehe wasllam and will remain as Ummati NOT AS A PROPHET !

Nasir Noman has given you a great proof of Hadees exclaiming the same thing what Hazrat Mujadid alf-e-sani rahimullah said in the past.

Now what Akbar Baig Mirza had said.

Yeh Msg hai us Qadyani ka


MIRZA
NAY JIN MUJADID KO TASLEM KIA HAI HUM UN KI AYYAT KI TAFSER DEKHTAY
HAIN K UNHO NAY IS AYYAT KA KIA TARJUMA KIA HIA ....... jeb aap ke mutabik aap Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani ( AS ) NAY JIN MUJADID KO TASLEM KIA HAI un ka un ka TARJUMA manet ho to fir es mai koi sek nhi hoga chahiye ki aap Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani ( AS ) ne jo kaha hai us ko bhi manet hoge . PHER UN KA KIA HOWA
TARJUMA TUM BHI MANO GAY OR MAIN BHI BOLO MANZOOR HAI ...?????

We gave a complete and thorough proof about the Jesus a.s. that he will return back to this world. but Akbar baig mirzai said that:

Ab Yeh Qadiyani kehta hai

khyun k mirza say pehlay
kese nay bhi wafat maseeh ka quran say tarjuma nahi kia .

Are we joking with you ?

Don't make this a ridiculous ! we have given you a proof about your false postulate that "No one had ever translated any verse of Holy Quran about Rafaye Eesa a.s. "

Mr. Akbar , don't try to turn the debate in a wrong way ! you have no concrete proof about any Mujadid of the past before Mirza Ghulam Qadiani that any one among them had ever said that "Hazrat Eesa a.s. has died..."

If you have nothing proof, don't try to take it wrong, otherwise it will be a slap on to your face !

Slam to whome who follow the right path. !

[naqshbandios_limra]

Muhammd ali bhai, usse kehna keh "tumm ne khud hi kaha keh Kisi mujadid ne quran ka tarjuma nahin kia, ke Hazrat Eesa a.s. nazool farmayen ge, "

Kia ye itna mamooli aqeedah ha keh koi mujadid bhi iski taraf koi tawajuh nahin kare ga ?

Nahin, ye aik aesa masla ha, jis ki khabar har aane waale mujadid ne di thi, koinkeh Mujadid , mujadid kehlata hi uss waqt ha, jabb wo deen par mukammal amal pera ho.

[Ustaad]

Mirzaie zehar ka pyyala p laingay lakin kese mujadid ka hawala nahi daingay ........ khyun k kese bhi mujadid nay hazrat ESA A.S k wafat ka aqeeda nahi likha ..........

[Ustaad]

is waqat main tafseel say jawab nahi day sekta .......... 2 min baad light chali jaige ........ is mirzaie nay jo tarjuma kia hia is say poocho k mirza say pehlay kes mujadid nay yeh tarjuma kia hia ?
rahe baat mujadid ka nam batanay ki to INSHAALLAH kal is ki list mill jaige ....... ALLAH hum tamaam musalmano k imaan ki hifazar farmai or fitn-e-qadianiat say mehfooz farmai AAMIN ..........
MASHAALLAH boohat acha jawab dia hia aap nay IMRAN bhai ..... ALLAH aap ko jazai-e-khair day AAMIN ..........

[Ustaad]

yaar IMRAN bhai MASHAALLAH aap ki english to bari puppo hai ...........

[iqu-76]

Please note , no matter how you translate this verse, there is NO MENTION of BODY or HEAVEN. Nor is there any mention of Jesus AS's look alike being switched on the cross. Is it reasonable to conclude that whoever is NOT KILLED nor crucified is taken up to heaven ?.. is this the only option left or the person who is not killed nor crucifed die a natural death?

For now, this is it.. please bring Quranic references to support your point of view. JazakAllah. May Allah give us strength to understand Quran properly and to help us see the true light. Aamin.

And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise



For now, this is what i'd like to talk about.. please correct me if im wrong in my understanding of the verses I quoted above. JazakAllah. I will inshallah be presenting some more quranic references which supports my belief that Jesus son of Mary AS is dead.

PS: Also , I know what other people will be presenting in support of their belief.. 4:157,158 (158-159 for some).. which is ..


In Quran, 7:25(26 for some) Allah says.. ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.’

and then another verse says ... 77:26-27(27-28 for some) " have we not made the earth so as to hold the living and the dead "

Note : the verse just quoted above uses the word " Qad khalat " which means died before.. examples of this word can be found in verses numbers 46:17, 41:25, 13:30, 2:134, 33:38, 24:34, 10:102, 5:75. ( one verse ahead for some )..Therefore, translating qad khalat in verse number 3:144 (quoted above) differently then the verses to which i've given references is not wise to do.

Since we all Muslims believe Jesus AS was just like us a human as well.. here is what Quran has to say to humans.. which include prophets as well...

3:144 ( or 145 for some )And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

this verse was the first verse on which Muslim had their first ijmaah on. All messengers have passed away before him. Had there been any doubt about this, then the possibility of Muhammad PBUH not dying was surely there. But since all messengers died before Him, he SAW died as well.

ee how the 2 verses above helped understand the 5:75 verse? Quran saying Prophets were humans which required food to eat.. then it says that Jesus and His mother Mary USED to eat food. They no longer eat now. The one who no longer eat is dead. Keep in mind in verse 5:75, Allah added Mary with Jesus. If Mary is dead, so is Jesus AS.

Also a verse from Quran to look at is the 3:144(145 for some), which was recited by Abu Bakr Sadiq RA, upon holy Prophet PBUH's death.

5:75(76 for some) The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

Look at this verse extra carefully. They both used to eat food. Meaning, they no longer do. If someone here comes and tell me that they are still eating food in heaven then please see the following verses..

21:08 (09 for some).. "And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever"

25:21 ( 20 for some )..And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you then be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.

17:93 Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger

When Kuffaar asks Muhammad PBUH to bring down a book from heaven and only then will they believe Him, the reply given to them by Holy prophet was that He is a human and a messenger.

I personally believe Jesus As of Nazareth is no longer alive. Some logical and simple reasoning as to why i do not believe in him being alive. Quran and ahadith will be provided later in the thread.

He was human and theres an age limit of humans. Jesus AS like all humans lived and it is apparent that He must have died in this Earth.
It goes against Quran when Quran only refers to Him as prophet of Israel, and upon his arrival He will be a follower of Islam.
It goest against the word Khataman nabiyeen ( if taken literally as last prophet ) if He comes back.
Now, show me the right path, and prove me wrong when i bring Quranic verses supporting my belief. We all agree that Isa AS just like any other human or prophet, was a true prophet of Allah too. Nothing more or less. Following are verses from Quran to think about..( with a little comments of my own )..

wazeh hoa keh Hazrat Eesa ilehe salam nazil bhi honge,..... kis tareha nazil hoge ??? kiya aasman se uetrega??